on orthodox jews and morality
I spent the afternoon observing the dismantling of what has got to be New York's most famous Jewish eatery: The Second Avenue Deli. I've never eaten there, so I couldn't really share in the general dismay about the pastrami or matzah ball soup. Still, it was sad to see the place close shop. . .
(A discussion on the following came up at work today. Someone was working on a story about an observant Jew who had laundered money. ..) Why do people seem to have this odd notion about Orthodox Jews and morality, as though we were somehow genetically altered so as not to be susceptible to temptation? The notion that religious people never lie or cheat, and that if they do it is shocking, seems outdated, even absurd. Ideally, of course, Orthodox Jews should not cheat, lie, or commit any other morally reprehensible acts. Neither should anyone else. But really, orthodox or not, we all have our personal challenges, and the idea that somehow religious people are above temptation is odd. I think it's worth keeping in mind that to keep kosher and observe Shabbos, for someone raised in that tradition, is not terribly difficult. It can be, for some. But for most, or many, it is very manageable. But to be honest requires more of the individual, the ability for self-reflection and introspection--habit just won't suffice. Isn't this obvious?
I wonder.
(A discussion on the following came up at work today. Someone was working on a story about an observant Jew who had laundered money. ..) Why do people seem to have this odd notion about Orthodox Jews and morality, as though we were somehow genetically altered so as not to be susceptible to temptation? The notion that religious people never lie or cheat, and that if they do it is shocking, seems outdated, even absurd. Ideally, of course, Orthodox Jews should not cheat, lie, or commit any other morally reprehensible acts. Neither should anyone else. But really, orthodox or not, we all have our personal challenges, and the idea that somehow religious people are above temptation is odd. I think it's worth keeping in mind that to keep kosher and observe Shabbos, for someone raised in that tradition, is not terribly difficult. It can be, for some. But for most, or many, it is very manageable. But to be honest requires more of the individual, the ability for self-reflection and introspection--habit just won't suffice. Isn't this obvious?
I wonder.
posted by shoshana at 12:26 AM
15 Comments:
"The notion that religious people never lie or cheat, and that if they do it is shocking, seems outdated, even absurd."
There's no notion that religious people never lie or cheat, however there's the notion that they shouldn't. I personally find money laundering by religious Jews greatly disturbing and embarrassing! Especially these Hasidic Jews who exhibit "their piety" by wearing their full Hasidic garb even in the hottest summer days (who's asking them to?), but at same time probably purchased that garb through tax fraud or worse. Just as it is against the religion to eat pork, it is against the religion to steal. I can't understand why some Jews make a distinction...
I'm not denying that it's embarrassing and wrong.But I do think there's a difference between eating pork and cheating. Not that eating pork is worse, only that it requires no real discipline on the part of the person, while not cheating, for some, might require a level of discipline the person lacks. Basically, what I'm getting at is that for most people religion is rote, and as such, things like kosher are easily upheld, but things that require something more, a level of discipline that is not intrinsic to all people, religious or not, so the distinction makes no sense. It assumes that observance is something people have chosen rather than something that has simply landed in their lap.
Of course I'm not arguing that it's forgivable, only that religious observance is mostly a matter of habit, and habit is only good for things that require little or no thought.
not to say that this is disheartening. but it is the truth, i think.
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hketg:
i agree with you that there is something disconcerting about people dressed as rabbis behaving in a manner that is morally repugnant. however, i think it's important to keep in mind that to them wearing the garb is a matter of habit, nothing more nothing less. of course it should represent something. but it doesn't and i think it's important to recognize that fact--that what people wear and what they eat does not tell us much about their values.
Well there's something very hypocritical (and dishonest) about giving off the appearance of being a very devout Jew, then acting in a way that is contrary to the moral values of the religion.
The question is why do these people lack the discipline to act in an honest way? Why aren't they raised in such a way that honesty is just as much something that "requires little or no thought." In a way, not eating pork is a passive action, while cheating takes more effort since one has to make a conscious choice (and then act on it) to violate a commandment and the laws of his/her country, and because it takes more thought, (I believe) it makes the transgressors action all the more awful.
Just read this in the daily news and found it somewhat amusing, figured Ide share:
"Much of the crime in southern Crown Heights, police and residents say, is divided along economic and racial lines.
Violent crime is more prevalent in the predominantly African-American and West Indian parts of the neighborhood; property crime is more common in the Jewish areas.
"This is like the edge of the Jewish area," said Zalman Kurinsky, 20, who lives within view of the precinct stationhouse. "I only know about crime from reading it in the paper. I read about things I've never seen in my life. I feel safe here."
(Here is the link, http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/v-pfriendly/story/380450p-323060c.html )
Now i hope you all understand what Im getting at, I mean nobody is perfect, yet being brought up jewish and religious, murder and killing and gang fights or the sort would never enter my mind, tell me how high is the jewish violent related crime rate??? Look in any of your local newspapers and your sure to find and least one or 2 or maybe even more murders and many violent crimes and I have yet to see one jewish religious murder! (g-d forbid)
Im not saying that its right to lie or cheat, but if money laundering is the worst crime in my n-hood them i think i have alot to be glad for!
i used to think in the same negative way about "these Hasidic Jews who exhibit "their piety" by wearing their full Hasidic garb even in the hottest summer days"
But then i just started thinking more open minded, Like who am i to judge them? ok so i am religious as well but still so much diffrent community-wise, custom's etc. i have no idea what the are really all about or what they might be feeling, again NOBODY is perfect, but hey at least they have what it takes to follow their customs by wearing their "hot suits" even in the hot summer days!
hey im not actually trying to excuse anyone's behavior. just trying to enlighten the outside observer: orthodox jews are just regular people, and sometimes temptation gets the better of them.
that's all. no excuse. just that they're not an exception. . just as human as anyone else. for better and for worse. .
gk, I can't believe your use of terms such as "those people", and your generalizations in regards to the "Hasidic" people.
First of all, while it is a problem the fact is that most do not lie and cheat.
Second, to you their dress is fanatic. To a Modern Orthodox, my dress is fanatic. Do someone non-religiou, the m.o. dresses weirdly too.
Third, maybe their dress habits are direct responses to genetic habits. They know they are prone to certain temptations, so they try going to extremes to force themselves out of their bad habits, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't.
Fourth, no one is immune from such problems, and detracting other religious observances is silly.
Fifth, if you noticed, polish jews are prone towards trickery, russian towards alcoholism, Israeli, towards thuggery, etc. So will you say that all Jews carry those negative traits? of course not! Rather, the negative traits of their native countries rub off on them too, but their characters are also influenced by the positive influences of religion, like charity, famly values, etc. So instead of saying "Chassidic Jews" cheat, say Polish cheat. Instead of Saying S'phardim have certain issues, say middle easterners have those problems. etc. But who keeps Shabbos? Who gives masar? Who has bikkur cholim? ALL THE JEWS!
Dovid,
You may want to reread my comments more carefully: I never used the term "those people," and I did not make any generalizations regarding "Hasidic" people. I used the terminology these Hasidic Jews, to specifically refer to the subsection who are dishonest, that is, not to all Hasidic Jews. My apologies if my use of "these" was unclear.
1) I am aware. But there enough that do, and it's embarrassing.
2) I never said anything about their dress being fanatic, I was just noting the stark contrast between the way they display themselves and their actions. That is, the Hasidic Jews who are committing the intentional sin of money laundering, continue to seemingly flaunt their "piety" in their dress.
3) I'm not really sure I understand what you're trying to say...
4) It is true that no group of people is immune to these sorts of problems, but religious people tend to be under higher public scrutiny with regard to their moral behavior (for instance the whole gay priest scandal), and hence, they have to be more careful about these things. I didn't mean to detract from other religious observances, I was just trying to point out that their focus can sometimes be on the wrong aspects of the religion. So they're oh so very careful about dressing "right," while their moral values have gone way down hill. (I'm not even sure if collecting welfare under tens of false names even falls under the category of temptation--I think it's outright criminal plotting, and takes much too much thought and planning to pass it off as falling into the grips of temptation.)
5) All the Jews? Not the last time I checked. And I'd be careful if I were you, you may get tagged as an ethnocentric racist.
What I was trying to say was that upon examination our flaws can be traced to our lands of origins. But our identity--which we're so proud of--is our jewishness.
"Which is to say, their sensitivity, compassion and kindness, are, more often than not, about themselves."
Does that include all kind people? including me? including you?
anon
yes, of course we're all (or most of us, anyway)ultimately self-centered/absorbed.
my post was referring specifically to 'self-described kind people.'
the kind who tell you 'i am a very kind person.'
anon:
see my previous post. the two are related. a breach of trust inspired both posts.
What you're saying is, simply, that the conventional view of religious people is too idealized. When people think about the religious, the assumption is that the adjective attributes belief in and adherence to a certain moral and religious code.
You beg to differ. For you, a religious person is religious simply because of the circumstance of his birth. Thus, no assumptions should be made about his morality or integrity.
Are you extrapolating from your personal experience?
anon:
i think it's a safe rule to go by.
i'm extrapolating from my observations and interactions with people--religious and secular.
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